Be Natvral: Kip Berman On His Transition from Band Frontman to Solo Artist

Whisper it quietly but Kip Berman might just be the most understated songwriter of the 21st Century. He’s certainly one of the most prolific, that’s for sure. Perhaps best known as the founder member and mouthpiece for Brooklyn indie pop outfit, The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart. Having formed the band in 2007, Berman spent the next decade writing and performing to legions of fans around the globe. Often reinventing the band’s sound (and line-ups) in the process, while leaving a lasting legacy of four critically acclaimed long players, alongside a host of singles and EPs that made The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart one of the most revered acts on their respective circuit.

Nevertheless, time has moved on from the impressionable twenty-something that wrote songs like ‘Teenager In Love’ and ‘Orchard Of My Eye’ back in the early 2000s. Marriage and fatherhood being the two catalysts that brought a change in Berman’s personal life, and ultimately priorities. Eventually, he relocated to Princeton, New Jersey with his family and while music was always going to be a key part of his life. Felt increasingly disconnected from the songs he’d written under his previous moniker.

So, The Natvral evolved out of this new found freedom, creating a whole new persona that’s so far produced one EP, ‘Know Me More’. Released towards the back end of 2018, the four tracks that make up the EP represent a complete sea change in terms of arrangement and structure from Berman’s works of old. Inspired by classic songwriters from folk’s heyday; Richard and Linda Thompson, Neil Young and Bob Dylan being three obvious ones that spring to mind. It sets the scene perfectly for Berman’s next venture. Which is just around the corner.

This week (Good Friday as it happens) sees the release of Tethers, Berman’s debut album as The Natvral. Comprised of nine exquisite, deftly constructed and openly candid pieces. Tethers might just be the finest collection of songs Kip Berman has put his name on to date. Intrigued, FMS caught up with him via the power of Zoom.  

How’s lockdown been for you? Has it impacted on your work?

“We’re all ok, and our parents and grandparents have been vaccinated, so we feel pretty lucky. As far as music in general, I am most concerned about the people that work in the infrastructure of clubs – Bartenders, kitchen workers, sound and lighting people, security, etc – that aren’t able to earn their livelihood when those spaces are closed down. Artists face challenges too, but at least they can write songs, record, or in some cases sell merch online.”

What’s been the biggest challenge for you as an artist?

“Definitely the process of working on something then not being able to share it immediately with others. Even before Covid. I wrote the very last Pains Of Being Pure At Heart record in 2015, then got into the studio in January 2016. So, we finished that album really quickly, then released it in the spring. Then it took almost two years for the first Natvral songs to come out, even though they’d been written pretty much straight after the last Pains… record, which in itself seemed a pretty strange phenomenon. It does create a bit of a disconnect in terms of momentum if you can’t play your songs to people straight away. Whereas in the past, with my old band we’d just do the record then go out and tour the songs.

“We recorded half The Natvral album while my wife was pregnant, but she wasn’t due for another two weeks. I remember driving home after we’d finished and getting home at three in the morning, then going to the hospital the next day as the baby was coming a little bit earlier than we expected. So, my son was born and I had this record that was kind of half made, which then reset everything again. That was October 2018, then in the spring of 2019 I finished off the rest of the songs in a couple of days. So, the record was done and then at the beginning of last year I was due to play a number of shows to promote it, with the intention of releasing it later in 2020. But then the pandemic struck so we kept putting it back. First to July then to the fall but as time went on it soon became pretty clear it was going to be a longer situation. So, this is the third time we’ve had a release date for the album. Even then, I’m still cautious to say that’s really a challenge. Because this situation has affected so many people. It’s not a music issue. It’s an everyone issue. The impact on venues and infrastructure of music in general is potentially more damaging than what it is to the artists themselves. Because when it shuts down in the physical realm it affects everyone, not just the performers.

“My favourite part of music is the making of it. I love going around and playing shows too, but I like writing songs the most. And I don’t think the pandemic’s had a profoundly negative impact on my ability to write and record music. It was really stressful with family stuff, all through the summer. Having two young children and being with them all day. At least until the fall when pre-schools opened up, I didn’t really have time to worry about anything else.”

Your live cover streams were one of the highlights of the first lockdown. How did that come about? Is it something you’ll revisit in the future and will any of those covers be recorded in the future? 

“Wow, thanks! That was so long ago, I almost forgot I did those. At the time, it seemed like a fun thing to do when you couldn’t do much else. But after a while, how many people playing guitars in their basement does the world really need to see? It felt like I was part of something I didn’t really want to be. There were some fun ones, though. I did a Wild Nothing song that came out nice, and any chance to play Suede’s ‘The Living Dead’ in the midst of a terrifying plague is well worth doing.” 

Your debut album as The Natvral seems to have taken forever bearing in mind you released the ‘Know Me More’ EP three years ago. Has the sound and tracklisting on the album changed over time? 

“Kind of the opposite, actually. I recorded half this record in about three days in October 2018, but my son was born the day after I came home from the studio, so I didn’t get to finish the other half until a four day stretch in the spring of 2019. And then when I was going to put it out in 2020, there was Covid-19, so I had to put it off until now. So, my son is now two-and-a-half years old, and this record is just now being born. Overall, this record took either seven days or three years to make, whichever way you want to count it!”

Musically it represents a vast sea change from the work older (Pains Of Being Pure At Heart) fans might be more familiar with. Have your tastes and influences changed over time or was it always your intention to bring out a reflective record in the style of classic American songwriters like Bob Dylan or Neil Young? 

“When my daughter was born in 2016, I moved from New York City to Princeton. Which is about forty-five miles south, a small university town. I didn’t write a Pains Of Being Pure At Heart song after that, as that music was so much a part of my old life and old identity in New York. I started the band when I moved to New York, and ended it – essentially – when I left. 

“The Natvral came about pretty… naturally. I was just animated by a different energy, listening to different music in different ways. I was home all day with my daughter for at least a year and a half, playing an old beat-up nylon string guitar to her in the daytime, and banging out my own songs in the night after she went to bed. And the kinds of records I’d play while I was home with her – Fairport Convention, Karen Dalton, Odetta, this bootleg Dylan live show from 1966 I found at my local record shop, Richard Thompson, and Joni Mitchell – were the kinds of sounds that felt in step with my new surroundings. 

“One of the artists I really grew to love was Richard Thompson. One day my mom came by and heard me playing something I was working on, and she asked if I ever heard Richard Thompson, as what I was doing kind of reminded her of him. I had never heard his solo work before, but instantly fell in love with ‘I Want To See The Bright Lights Tonight’ when I gave it a listen. I even got to see him live here in Princeton – and it was an incredible show. So that got me interested in going back and listening to Fairport Convention, which is incredibly underrated. Maybe that’s just from being in the U.S, but they are almost never mentioned here. But the ‘idea’ I had about them and the reality were so different – they’re so inventive, progressive, emotive and brilliant through and through. I’m sorry it took me so long to hear them, but I’m glad they’re in my life now.” 

Did becoming a father then relocating change your outlook on both the music you’re making and life in general? 

“Yeah, absolutely. I feel utterly other than what I was before. I feel like I’ve had to re-learn how to sing, how the person I am now would sing. It’s a different comfort with what I am – not a fixation on what I wish I was. My singing voice changed and the way I was writing and playing changed with it. I felt like Pains… songs were always attempting an ideal that we couldn’t achieve. That it was important to be striving for something beyond ourselves. Whereas The Natvral feels more of myself as opposed to, ‘I wish I could be that but I’m only this.’ The Natvral is more about who I am. I don’t think The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart would have moved in the same way had we continued as a band.

“Though I think it’s easy to fall into a trap of seeing the music of someone in my situation through a lens of, ‘now that he’s a father, his mature… outlook… contemplative… reflective… peaceful… at ease.’ I think that’s not quite how it is. I’m just as ‘unsettled’ as ever, I just find different ways I want to express the things I can’t say.” 

Tethers seems very autobiographical in places. Were these songs intended to paint a picture – or separate chapters even – of your life experiences to date? 

“The album is largely about people I’ve known. But I think I was looking outward more than inward when writing these songs – or I was making sense of my life in relation to these other people I’ve met and what they’re going through. It’s a kind of a self-portrait in relief. 

“It is autobiographical. That’s inescapable. But I didn’t want people to think I was being introspective. It’s more about gazing at other people and seeing what they do, for better or worse. I wasn’t writing about these people for their own sake so much. There was always an element of how it might relate back to me in a song like ‘Sylvia, The Cup Of Youth’ for example. It’s not judgmental, which is surprising because if you asked me how to describe myself, I would be judgmental or petty. I do think of myself in that way. Sometimes when you write a song you don’t know how it makes you feel until you listen to what it’s saying. With songs like ‘Sylvia, The Cup Of Youth’, ‘Runaway Jane’ or ‘Alone In London’ there’s a recognition that other people are doing different things. Just seeing that people have chosen other paths or whose lives are still in transition while mine is moving towards a certain solidity within the established parameters of existence. I’m married, I live in a house with two small children. It’s not like I can just get up and drive across to the other side of the country because I feel like it. So, from my perspective those songs are more about me saying I’m not doing the same things as them. That can be a good thing or sometimes it can be sad. Even with the title of the album, Tethers. They can either be things that hold you in place and secure you in some way. But also, they can limit your movement and hold you back. That’s what a lot of the songs on the record are talking about in different ways.”

The album itself was recorded without using overdubs and traditional layered production techniques. Was that deliberate?

“I think it was because I have two very small children and had to do it as quick as I could. I’m sure there’s a way to rationalize that artistically, but honestly, it’s just because my mother-in-law was in town for a long weekend and I could take the time to go to the studio and bang out a bunch of songs.” 

How did Andy Savours become involved? What did he bring to the process? 

“Andy recorded my old band’s last two records, Days of Abandon and The Echo of Pleasure. It was after that first record that we became friends – not just music friends, but real friends. And he’s the one that helped me make my first EP as The Natvral, Know Me More. I had just finished the last Pains Of Being Pure At Heart tour and had a day off before heading home, and he invited me to his studio to record some new songs I’d been working on. 

“When I got there, he had an amp, a guitar, and a microphone and said, ‘Ok, so play the guitar and sing your songs.’ He then hit the record button, I played four songs (‘Know Me More,’ ‘The Violet Hour,’ ‘Home’ and a cover of Leonard Cohen’s ‘Suzanne’ that I’d been closing Pains sets with at the time). Then we went down to the pub. 

“When we did Tethers together, we basically applied the same ideas but with a full band on most of the tunes. We did just about all of it live, didn’t use a click track or any guitar pedals, and just captured the sound of us playing the songs as best we could. Andy will tell you the approach is inspired by ‘Tonight’s The Night’ (Neil Young). I think the real inspiration is also a bit, “Tonight’s The Night (I Have a Babysitter)!”

“So many artists tell you how long and hard they worked on something and then expect a reward. I’m not saying you shouldn’t work hard, but I don’t know if ‘working hard’ at music necessarily makes for better music. I take what I do seriously, but I don’t think I have to tell people every five minutes how seriously they should take it too.” 

Were there any other songs written and recorded over the same period of time that didn’t make it onto Tethers? Will they be revisited in the future? 

“We recorded fifteen songs. Eleven originals and four covers. The covers were ‘You Looked Like a Portrait’ (Dear Nora), ‘Make You Feel My Love’ (Bob Dylan), ‘I Won’t Back Down’ (Tom Petty) and ‘A Heart Needs a Home’ (Richard and Linda Thompson). We put nine on the album, as that’s how many fit on the record. Maybe we can release ‘A Portrait of Sylvie Vartan’ at some point? It sounds good, just like the stuff on Tethers, but we didn’t really have room for it.” 

What was different about those songs to the nine that did make it onto Tethers?

“I don’t like double vinyl. I just think if you’re going to make a record it has to be cohesive. That means a lot to me. A collection of songs on one album that makes sense together. Normally I like to put out ten songs when I make an album, but the last song on the record ‘Alone In London’ was long and that’s how it had to be. I wasn’t going to cut out a verse to knock it down to four minutes or whatever. It’s a long song because it tells a story, and in keeping that the length it was meant there wasn’t room for any of the others.

“Also, half the songs were recorded solo with just my voice and a guitar, and the others with the band. So, it was also about getting the balance right between the two. Tethers is mostly a full band record but with some solo things too. ‘A Portrait Of Sylvie Vartan’ was a perfectly fine song, but it didn’t say anything different to what was already on the record. It was just another good, mid-tempo rocker that could probably be a B-side or something. I wouldn’t mind it to be heard but it didn’t need to be in the context of the record. It’s about a friend of mine in Japan who really likes Sylvie Vartan so modelled her personal style on her. She dyed her hair blonde and wore green contacts. It goes back to the disconnect of what you’re emulating and how you’re trying to do it, which is a little funny to me. Not in a bad way, but how different people perceive what is the right way to be, or the right way to look and how anachronistic that can be if you’re walking around Tokyo dressed as a sixties pop chanteuse.”

You released a single with Hatchie in 2020, a cover of The Jesus & Mary Chain’s ‘Sometimes Always’ which turned out to be the last to feature The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart moniker. How did that come about, and will there be any more similar collaborations in the future?

“Sure, with The Natvral I’d be open to doing more collaborations. The Pains… and Hatchie cover happened a while back. I did the track and then sent it to Hatchie. She did the vocal which was awesome and sent it back. We recorded it in so by the time it was finished The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart had broken up. I like that song because it represents a time where The Pains… were ending yet there was this other artist who was carrying on that sound and tradition in her own way. Hatchie told me she saw The Pains… when she was eighteen, at a festival in Australia, and it inspired her to start a band with that sound. Her music is probably a lot more refined than ours ever was in terms of how accomplished and sophisticated it is. But it’s such a nice feeling when someone says your music inspired them to make music, especially as The Pains… were ending and Hatchie’s was just beginning to take off. It sounds hubristic to say ‘passing of the torch’ but it felt good to be working with a younger artist who liked what we’d done but was going on to do things her own way. It’s a really cool collaboration too. The original is great, Hope Sandoval with The Jesus And Mary Chain. It’s also cool in how it doesn’t entirely fit with the rest of the catalogue, yet its actually able to go even further because more people can relate to it.”

Your current band includes many players who’ve worked with you in the past. How did they get involved?  

“I think doing things with your friends is more fun. The whole point of rock’n’roll is to do stuff with people you like. It’s the opposite of work, where you’re meant to get along with strangers. I just think music sounds better when you make it with the people that are part of your natural environment.” 

Are there any plans to tour Tethers once the pandemic is over? How will the songs be adapted for live shows? 

“I hope so. I’ll tour either solo or with a live band, whatever the situation allows. I don’t think the songs for this record are better or worse in either scenario. I do like playing just solo, as it’s so peaceful to be able to go up with your guitar and just — play.” 

What’s been your biggest challenge reverting to becoming a solo artist from being part of a band? Which do you prefer? 

“It’s hard to explain, but there’s a lot more emphasis on my actual body – people look at it, it’s the only thing in the picture, I can’t just hide behind hot Kurt in the back. But yeah, it’s like how you can’t hear an Elton John song without thinking of the person Elton John. And I just feel bad that I’m kind of a lousy vessel for these songs, which deserve better.” 

You recently did a Tim Burgess listening party for the first Pains Of Being Pure At Heart album. What was it like revisiting that record again after eleven years? Will you be doing any more listening parties in the future?

“I’ve got one planned on Friday 9th April for Tethers

“But yeah, it was cool to do the one on the first Pains Of Being Pure At Heart record. I guess it’s no secret that Tim is immensely supportive to so many musicians, but I’m still grateful he took a liking to The Pains… over the years. 

“The listening party went by really fast – it’s not that long of an album. I almost wanted to listen to it again and chat some more. It was funny, because when we made it, we thought it wasn’t good enough and almost scrapped it. I had just written a bunch of songs for what would be Belong, and we thought maybe we should focus on that instead. But I guess it was alright, if all these years later people want to hear it.” 

Belong also celebrated its 10th anniversary in March. Will there be anything to coincide? 

“A while back I asked Mike Schulman (Slumberland Records) to try to find the artwork so we could repress it – it’s been out of print for ages – but I’m not sure if he’s been able to track it down yet. We’re repressing the first self-titled album this summer though, as that was out of print too. Maybe that’s considered a twelve-year anniversary, so we have until 2023 to find the Belong masters!”

Looking back through your career as a musician and recording artist, is there anything you’d change or do differently? 

“I feel we were so lucky. The bands that inspired us – The Pastels, Orange Juice, The Vaselines, My Favorite – most of them didn’t get to do half the cool things we got to do, you know? We got to go everywhere, meet loads of our heroes and hang out with so many genuinely remarkable people all over the world. We played big festivals and tiny basements. We got to put out four records and stopped before we got bad. No one in the group is mad at anyone, no one’s life got messed up or is in a cult now. I can’t think of a happier story for an indie band than ours.”

You’ve been signed to Kanine Records since starting The Natvral. How did you end up working with the label? How do Kanine compare to other labels you’ve been on, particularly from an artistic point of view? 

“Well, Kanine is just two people – a couple, Lio and Kay. I’ve known them since I moved to New York. They had also put out loads of records from almost everyone that played in The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart. They put out Depreciation Guild (Kurt Feldman), Dream Diary (Jacob Sloan), Zaza (Danny, my best friend, who also recorded a bunch of Pains stuff), Beverly (Drew Citron), etc. They even put out Fear of Men, who we did multiple tours with. So, I’ve known the label forever, and I’ve loved loads of stuff they’ve done in the past.” 

You’ve been in the music industry nearly fifteen years now. What advice would you give a new artist or band that’s just starting out? 

“I don’t think I’m in the industry, but I have been playing songs with my friends for a bit now, long before my old band even. 

“My advice is this: People always get in your ear, telling you about how ‘to take things to the next level.’ But eventually, the next level is death. So just make the best songs can with your friends.”

Are there any other new artists you’d recommend we should be checking out right now

“I’ve been really into the new album by Tele Novella called Merlynn Belle. I think it’s a real remarkable collection of songs – nuanced songwriting – and a kind of knowing, psychedelic western aesthetic that I don’t know if a lot of other people are doing – or certainly not doing so well. 

“I also really like the new album from Wild Pink, A Billion Little Lights, who is a gifted songwriter in a comforting strain of preppy americana.  And of course, my buddy Andy Savours also produced the Black Country, New Road album. I suppose that one isn’t under the radar in your country so much these days – but it’s a really special record that I like – and I don’t usually go too much for records that might be in that vein. It’s clever, funny and a bit vulnerable in ways that sometimes that sound doesn’t allow for.

“But as the last seventy years of recorded sound continues to be more and more available on streaming and re-issues, I find ‘new’ music all the time – that just happens to not actually be new. The other night I was just mesmerized by Elizabeth Cotten, and was trying to find as many live videos of her playing live. And I go back to things like Margo Guryan, which feels perfect in her ability to balance these ‘light’ baroque pop compositions, with an underlying melancholy that keeps it tethered to something of enduring substance.” 

The album Tethers is out on Dirty Bingo/Kanine Records on Friday 2nd April.

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